PBEM Napoleon Bonaparte [7]

[JPetroski]

Rady, I'm not trying to start some internet argument with you here. The proximate cause of this whole mess isn't either of our fault, after all. Rather, it is that this scenario presents itself as a historical scenario yet is poorly designed as such (at least for MP).

As a designer, if I were to approach this scenario and wanted to balance it, or make England harder to play, do you know what I'd do? I'd make England's land forces more expensive to reduce their number. I'd have there be some reason to maintain a "Fleet in Being" that could successfully interdict an invasion precisely because such a Fleet in Being would necessitate sending trade ships out relatively unprotected. I'd perhaps give them a lesser form of government, or a few trade-restricting techs to ensure they didn't get too far ahead.

What I would not do is neuter the Royal Navy and render it impotent by allowing it to play a non-role in any cross-channel invasion. I would not, under any circumstances, allow an enemy to land an entire army in one turn. A Napoleonic-era scenario where the Royal Navy cannot even attempt to intercept an invasion fleet is basically the same as a WW2 scenario where the Germans have no tanks! The British player has legitimate grounds to expect the Royal Navy to be a force. In this flawed scenario, it is not.

This scenario is going to take a massive commitment of time to play and I'm sorry but it is not worth it to me to do that with these flaws. Personally, I think that within three turns is a GOOD time to bow out. Many games see people drop them after everyone has expended an enormous amount of time. This one's just starting. It'll be ok

And frankly, I do think McMonkey has the best solution. A player SHOULD have to defeat the Royal Navy if it wants to invade England. This part really isn't debatable. (Whether or not further balancing is then needed to make sure it is still fair for France is of course a new question raised).

[Radyserb]

So, why did you join this PBEM?

What is for me very annoying are less your objections and proposals, but the kind you made these: "I am right and if you not change this I quit---." - your blackmailing, know-it-all and whiny attitude makes me sick and is not very conducive to find any solution.

Edit: Then do your own modification and PBEM...

[JPetroski]

So, why did you join this PBEM?

specifically because you claimed to have altered this scenario to remove its glaring problem - we've been over this

What is for me very annoying are less your objections and proposals, but the kind you made these: "I am right and if you not change this I quit---." - your blackmailing, know-it-all and whiny attitude makes me sick and is not very conducive to find any solution.

I think I've shown myself in other scenarios to be a pretty good asset here. I play my turns relatively quickly, I'm willing to compromise for people, and I'm playing through on several that aren't going well at all. When someone else has a good point (like you w/ Suez), I yield. I don't draw very many lines in the sand and am quick to erase them when proven wrong. In this particular case, I am right.

Anyway, sorry for initially questioning your integrity. That was definitely wrong of me. I do apologize for insinuating that you did this on purpose.

[Radyserb]

In this particular case, I am right.

Yes Sir!

[McMonkey]

(1) makes the Invasion Barges needless. France will never have a fleet to beat the british fleet. (2) is good for the British, they are able to protect their freighters with their veteran Two and Three Deckers and so are able to invade France, but France isn´t able to invade Great Britain - never. Just if he builds the whole time Two and Three Deckers in his coastal cities.

This would be historically accurate! On the other hand Britain would struggle to launch a successful cross channel invasion of France, especially early in the game so the situation is mutual. France could attempt to cut Britain's trade routes and wear down the Royal Navy in the process. If France could build up enough of a numerical advantage this way to protect a crossing an invasion of Britain may be worth attempting, if not Britain remains as a thorn in the French side as it did historically. Historically France won and lost its battles on the continent, especially in Russia and Spain.

I'm not taking sides, I just want to find a simple and historically accurate solution that will allow us to continue. The complication is that if you allow the Invasion Barges to land troops freely Britain is practically doomed, if you restrict the Barges it is almost impossible for the French to invade Britain. How do we best solve this? Does anyone else have any ideas? Could the other two stackable squares be removed and the French turn be replayed or is it too late for such a compromise?

I am more than willing to play as France if that helps but we still need to resolve this issue. I am working on my ToT version of Bonaparte 3 which I hope will be a vast improvement on my first attempt, but this will still be a bit of an epic scenario unlike John Ellis' fast paced original.

[Radyserb]

JP is right, ask him

[Dario]

nothing. solve the differences

[McMonkey]

Sulking doesn't suit you Rady Compromise is what's needed here (from one side or the other or both) and compromise doesn't mean we are right or wrong, just that we are mature enough to find a sensible solution!

[Dario]

do you think we are matures, drew?

[Karlheinz]

Sulking doesn't suit you Rady Compromise is what's needed here (from one side or the other or both) and compromise doesn't mean we are right or wrong, just that we are mature enough to find a sensible solution!

[McMonkey]

do you think we are matures, drew?

Well I'm 32 and still playing computer games with little toy solders so I guess not

Rady, you PM box is full! I want to send you some spam!

[JPetroski]

I have a few last things I'd like to say:

First of all, I was way out of line with the way I initially brought up this issue. Re-reading my posts, I can definitely see how they would offend Rady, compel him to counter, and take him right out of compromise mode. Rady, I am sorry for how I handled this situation, you have a right to be upset, and I don't blame you if you don't think very highly of me right now. I do hope that we can shake hands and move on, so to speak, though I also realize that sometimes it's not so easy to do this immediately and a cooling off period may be needed.

Secondly, I apologize to the community for creating this mess, which caused a few shockwaves to be felt in other scenarios. I hope they won't last very long.

Third, I do not think it is best for this community for me to continue in this scenario at this time. I do think a little cooling period is preferable to jumping right back in. What's been said has been said, what's been done has been done. I think it would be better for another player to take over as Britain and for me to bow out of this one. So, I also apologize to the members of this scenario for delaying it!

[Radyserb]

I have a few last things I'd like to say:

First of all, I was way out of line with the way I initially brought up this issue. Re-reading my posts, I can definitely see how they would offend Rady, compel him to counter, and take him right out of compromise mode. Rady, I am sorry for how I handled this situation, you have a right to be upset, and I don't blame you if you don't think very highly of me right now. I do hope that we can shake hands and move on, so to speak, though I also realize that sometimes it's not so easy to do this immediately and a cooling off period may be needed.

Secondly, I apologize to the community for creating this mess, which caused a few shockwaves to be felt in other scenarios. I hope they won't last very long.

Third, I do not think it is best for this community for me to continue in this scenario at this time. I do think a little cooling period is preferable to jumping right back in. What's been said has been said, what's been done has been done. I think it would be better for another player to take over as Britain and for me to bow out of this one. So, I also apologize to the members of this scenario for delaying it!

Thank you thank you thank you! (This time really)
It would be great, if you keep this PBEM on
I apologize for my reaction too, i was very upset...

Maybe you are right and a pause would be the best

Your proposals are good, combined with McMonkeys, we could give a try. I will retreat my units from Britain, and from now disembarkations would be just possible, if the transporting ship was (at least) one turn at (high) sea.
On the other hand british land units would be further more expensive, Great Britain would get trade reducing technologies from the start (makes necessary to trade a lot), maybe we could change the govermental form to democracy, but I don´t know, maybe it´s then too heavy again.

[McMonkey]

I think the changes to the invasion barges are definitely required and therefore so are some changes to rebalance things so the British are not too powerful. You made the original modifications Rady, could you make the additional changes you think are needed? If anyone has any useful ideas that will help this balancing then now is the time to shout.

Perhaps it would be best to start a fresh game with these modifications. I was looking forward to playing as Prussia but I'm willing to change to make sure we get this show on the road!

[Radyserb]

I think the changes to the invasion barges are definitely required...!

Why? I think, the rule about the units at sea is enough This rule regards the invasion barges too, so I don´t think we need a change about this

I would like to continue with the modified rules and house rules, if no one is against it.

Edit: OK, maybe a restart would be better