Cobra, kannst du meine Schweden ziehen? Wir haben zwar kein Bündnis, aber wir sind beide Neutral in dem Englisch - Französischen Krieg und es geht zur Zeit nur um Handel und Optimierung der Infrastruktur.
Cobra, kannst du meine Schweden ziehen? Wir haben zwar kein Bündnis, aber wir sind beide Neutral in dem Englisch - Französischen Krieg und es geht zur Zeit nur um Handel und Optimierung der Infrastruktur.
Turn for Sweden
Wenn du tot bist, dann weißt du nicht, dass du tot bist, es ist nur schwer für die anderen. Genau so ist es, wenn du blöd bist.
JPetroski next.
Geändert von Radyserb (24. August 2011 um 03:25 Uhr)
Rady, at the risk of being rude, I'm going to be blunt with you:
How can you start up this scenario, choose the protagonist, make this rule modification:
And then make half of the four squares in southern England that are to be stackable, to be those bordering London? Does this not defeat the entire purpose of your rule modification? How does almost only allowing yourself to land unhindered right next to your major opponent's capitol make invasions more difficult?Some coastal areas are not stackable any longer, especially in northern spain, northern france and southern england to make invasions there difficult.
Literally, there are four stackable coastal squares in southern England, and half of those directly border London (25,65 bordering Plymouth, 29,63, not bordering anything, and then 36,64 and 38,64 both bordering London).
Granted, you do have some stackable coastal terrain in France, but this terrain is near Cherbourg, Brest, Bayonne, and Amsterdam -- a far cry from literally next door to Paris.
Now I'm sure this was an honest error, but regardless, I'm not accepting it, and I am not playing on until it is addressed. I offer three possible solutions:
1. I'll play my turn without attacking any of your units, and you can have a free pass back to France. We will then use cheat mode to change these terrains to non-stackable; or
2. We can change these terrains to non-stackable and have you and Sweden replay your turns and you can mount an invasion elsewhere.
3. You can find another British player and carry on however you like
Not to sound like I'm taking my ball and going home, but there should be some modicum of fairness and I cannot conceive how anyone could honestly say that the current errors in the setup allow for that.
Again, I am game for having a few turn truce to allow you to withdraw all of your troops in the interest of not making people play massive turns twice...
Sorry, but why didn´t you occupy the hills with your troops (but the stupid Not-Stackable-Terrains)??? Hills give your troops 100% defense bonus. You didn´t fortify the hills resp. the one hill, that was your mistake, not my. It is true, there are two squares near London, which are not stackable (but could be occupied by your troops), and no such squares next to Paris. But France has many fronts, you just the channel, so I think it´s fair, that the Englishman has more to do to be safe from France than France to be safe from England, because it´s for France just one theater of many...Zitat von JPetroski
Rady, at the risk of being rude, I'm going to be blunt with you:
How can you start up this scenario, choose the protagonist, make this rule modification:
And then make half of the four squares in southern England that are to be stackable, to be those bordering London? Does this not defeat the entire purpose of your rule modification? How does almost only allowing yourself to land unhindered right next to your major opponent's capitol make invasions more difficult?
Literally, there are four stackable coastal squares in southern England, and half of those directly border London (25,65 bordering Plymouth, 29,63, not bordering anything, and then 36,64 and 38,64 both bordering London).
Granted, you do have some stackable coastal terrain in France, but this terrain is near Cherbourg, Brest, Bayonne, and Amsterdam -- a far cry from literally next door to Paris.
Now I'm sure this was an honest error, but regardless, I'm not accepting it, and I am not playing on until it is addressed. I offer three possible solutions:
1. I'll play my turn without attacking any of your units, and you can have a free pass back to France. We will then use cheat mode to change these terrains to non-stackable; or
2. We can change these terrains to non-stackable and have you and Sweden replay your turns and you can mount an invasion elsewhere.
3. You can find another British player and carry on however you like
Not to sound like I'm taking my ball and going home, but there should be some modicum of fairness and I cannot conceive how anyone could honestly say that the current errors in the setup allow for that.
Again, I am game for having a few turn truce to allow you to withdraw all of your troops in the interest of not making people play massive turns twice...
Sorry, Rady, but I'm not backing down on this one. YOU set up the scenario, YOU declared that you would modify it to make invasions more difficult, YOU chose France, and YOU decided to leave your major competitors' capitol completely open to a 100% unrealistic and unfair immediate invasion. Telling me, a civ with significantly fewer land units in the region, that its my fault because I didn't neglect every other square inch to defend two stackable squares that shouldn't be stackable in the first place (and which I had no reason to suspect would be stackable given your starting post) doesn't wash.
I had no reason to suspect that those squares would be fortresses given the nature of your first post. You claimed to want to make invasions more difficult, presumably because there is a design flaw with this scenario where French troops can wind up next to London immediately, yet you failed to make invasions more difficult for yourself, or to correct this design flaw. Everything you supposedly set out to do by taking away a few fortresses along the coast lines is undone by your neglecting to remove them from those two squares. Why bother to remove any?
If you want to give yourself a few landing grounds that are fortified, that's fine, but right next to London is not.
I'm sorry - I dropped the Suez issue even though it hurt only one person (me, the protagonists' main competitor--a pattern is developing here), but I'm not giving an inch on this one.
That´s not true. When I decided to let the two squares stackable it was not clear I would play France. We could gladly play the same game again with me as England and you as France!
It is heavier for me. In the old version England had with its "few land units" to fortify the whole South. Now it`t just the hills!You claimed to want to make invasions more difficult, presumably because there is a design flaw with this scenario where French troops can wind up next to London immediately, yet you failed to make invasions more difficult for yourself, or to correct this design flaw.
Then it would be too easy for you and the french invasion barges would be senseless (or at least would have considerably less sense).Why bother to remove any?
Again: You have to protect London. Maybe you didn't notice, that these two squares are stackable. In this case we could replay from your last turn on, although the french turn is very long! I cite Battosai:If you want to give yourself a few landing grounds that are fortified, that's fine, but right next to London is not.
It is easier now: No long coastline to defend any longer, no serious amphibious units, no trading with british cities without permission...
You are not the main competitor, there is no rule which says this. You make yourself to the main competitor. Every nation is clever enough to make/hold peace with me to build up a rich output economy and an army, just you don´t, sorry.I'm sorry - I dropped the Suez issue even though it hurt only one person (me, the protagonists' main competitor--a pattern is developing here), but I'm not giving an inch on this one.
Geändert von Radyserb (24. August 2011 um 17:40 Uhr)
I can see both sides of this argument, you both have good points. For me the major floor in this scenario that needs addressing is the ability of France to invade Britain without the Royal Navy intervening. A successful French invasion was as unlikely as a successful German one in 1940 whilst the Royal Navy existed. Had France and Spain won at Trafalga or the Luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain an invasion may well have worked, but with the Royal Navy to oppose it any crossing was doomed! My solution in Bonaparte 4 was to have a channel two squares wide and invasion barges with a movement rate of 1. This way the Royal Navy (Britain's wooden walls) would have an opportunity to intervene.
My solution for this scenario:
- Replay the French turn
- Reduce the Invasion Barges movement to one
- Introduce a new house rule stating that invasion forces had to spend one turn at sea (IE after the invasion barges cross the channel the French troops cannot disembark until the following turn).
This is a historically accurate solution and seems fair to me, though unfortunately it will mean Rabyserb replaying a large turn. For me a game where a powerful France knocks out one of its main rivals on turn 1 is a non starter and something should be done. I'm not questioning Rabyserb's integrity in any way, I'm convinced he did not engineer this for his own advantage, its just a flaw in the scenario and his fixes do not go far enough to address the issue. He has a point that you could have done a better job of defending your coast JP, but that still doesn't address the major flaw. I really want to play this scenario, please agree to my solution (or come up with another one) and lets play on!
(1) makes the Invasion Barges needless. France will never have a fleet to beat the british fleet.
(2) is good for the British, they are able to protect their freighters with their veteran Two and Three Deckers and so are able to invade France, but France isn´t able to invade Great Britain - never. Just if he builds the whole time Two and Three Deckers in his coastal cities. When he has enough ships, then the Prussians/Austrians etc. are already in Paris
THIS IS NOT TURN 1! JP had enough time to prevent the temporary situation...For me a game where a powerful France knocks out one of its main rivals on turn 1 is a non starter and something should be done.
If JP wasn´t aware about the two Stackable fields I have another proposal: If JP doesn´t attack my fleet in the channel, I will retreat my units from Great Britain and JP can occupy/fortify the hills
Otherwise...
The point is, Rady, if you're going to modify a scenario to make invasions more difficult, it looks very bad if you decide that two squares directly adjacent to a nation's capitol are 1/2 the ones you'll leave stack-able (ie, beachhead friendly). I thought you had chosen France ahead of time. I apologize for any insinuations.
Could I have done a better job of defending? Perhaps. But, as McMonkey pointed out, the major issue here is that my #1 historical defense (Royal Navy) is impotent in this scenario, as is my #1 geographic defense (the Channel), which has a substantial design flaw. Reading your first post, I assumed (and yes, this was my fault), that you had taken steps to correct this design flaw. You didn't.
Now I don't see any need for any of us to replay turns. I'll grant your army free passage back to France. I'll even agree to not move a single unit of mine in the British Isles until one turn after they're back in France. But I won't just occupy those hills - I'm taking down the forts, too. This is a massive design flaw and should not occur again.
But it's ok, do it so. Two prescored labourers are enough to recreate the Fortress
If the general attitude is that we're not going to do anything to fix this obvious design flaw, and that we must play on in a situation where France can just embark and disembark troops into a stackable square directly adjacent to my capitol in one turn, then screw it. I've got better things to do with my time than play an England where the Royal Navy and Channel have absolutely no relevanceBut it's ok, do it so. Two prescored labourers are enough to recreate the FortressWhen McMonkey's improved version debuts, I'll give it another shot.
Do what you want, we are living in a free world
It was a nice pleasure to play with you JP, I don´t think I will repeat this in next time
And I wish you well too, Rady! Your generous and fair-minded attitude will no doubt serve you well in our ever-shrinking community
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