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Thema: 90 - Sachsens Glanz und Miguelustens Gloria

  1. #1
    RB-Tourist Avatar von Miguelito
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    90 - Sachsens Glanz und Miguelustens Gloria

    Bild

    Hallo und willkommen zu unserer PB 90 Story. Da ich ja einer von drüben bin, wird auch die Story zunächst mal auf RB (Link) geschrieben werden, ich will aber versuchen, die spannenden Beiträge hier herüber zu kopieren. Ich schreibe auf Englisch (aber es gibt ja gute Übersetzer), aber die Diskussion hier können wir gerne auf Deutsch führen. Einer der Hauptgründe, mich hier einzuschreiben, war, dass ich die Stories mit für alle offener Diskussion hier lustiger finde als die manchmal etwas toten RB-Fäden. Ich hoffe also, dass es hier lebhaft wird

    Und noch was: Ich schreibe hier als Nichtsachse über Sachsen. Nichts davon ist böse gemeint, und ich hoffe es fühlt sich niemand beleidigt. Falls doch, korrigiere ich mich gerne falls ich was Falsches sage. So, los geht's.


    This game we're Saxons.

    What follows is my stream of consciousness on what I feel like saying on Saxony's history; you have been warned. I am also writing all of it from my head with a bit of wiki on the side, and I am by not means an expert on anything of it, so please forgive (and correct) possible inaccuracies.

    Saxony is the German state that I happen to live in (for quite some time already), although, relevantly, I hail from the other end of the country and don't quite always blend in with the true locals. This is not the Saxony where the latter half of the Anglo-Saxons come from; in short, that Saxony used to be the largest duchy within the HRR, until their most famous duke Henry the Lion got on the wrong side of the emperor Barbarossa and most other princes and the duchy was splintered. After a few centuries the title of Prince Elector of Saxony travelled east through dynastic succession, to the counts of Meißen. Meißen is just a few miles downstream from the current Saxon capital of Dresden, where I live.

    The area used to be Slavic speaking in the early middle ages. That is much reflected in the names of places, including Dresden, which Wikipedia tells was originally Drježdźany, meaning swamp dweller . To my understanding, a lot of German settlers moved in during the later middle ages, same as in regions like Bohemia or Silesia, to the point of achieving cultural predominance. As far as I am informed this process was rather peaceful though, as the local rulers actively sought for the settlers. However, the slavic language of Sorbian has survived until this day, mostly in the eastern regions of the state, and in fact it is the only language that has an official status exlusively in Germany (German itself being official in Austria and Switzerland plus some places where it's a minority language). This is actively cultivated; in my (urban, Germanized for centuries) neighbourhood there is a Sorbian speaking nursery, and more to the east in places like Bautzen or Zittau* (and the rural surroundings) the street signs are bilingual and there are Sorb tradition societies and the like. It's although taught in some schools.

    *ups das stimmt wohl nicht.

    The thread title and the opening picture allude to a 6 episode TV series, Saxony's Splendour and Prussia's Glory, produced in the 80's German Democratic Republic (GDR, Commie East Germany). It was one of if not the biggest Eastern German film production. I have to admit that I have not watched it (and hardly will in the near future), but apparently it's all the rage among the (older?) natives. The guy in the middle I believe is supposed to be Augustus II the Strong, who was the prince elector on the turn of the 17th to 18th century and got himself elected to king of Poland. Baroque in every sense, he is known for supporting the arts, sciences and a long list of mistresses, as well as for eating and drinking in impressive quantitities. He also broke a horseshoe with his bare hands at a party once and issued himself a diploma on the feat. Although a mechanics professor I'm acquainted with claims to have proven that he cheated. Here he is anyways, most glorious:

    Bild

    That is an actual gold coating fwiw, which continues to be renovated.

    As for another fun(?) fact(?), the Saxons by Augustus' time had become protestant; a protestant however could not become Polish king, so of course Augustus adopted the true faith when it was necessary. But now he was a catholic king with a protestant capital. Here is the cathedral that his son built:

    Bild

    Apparently a catholic king is supposed to make a procession on Corpus Christi, but the local citizens were not thrilled by the idea, and it was feared that even rotten eggs might fly. So for that purpose, the balconies you see proved very practical, letting the king walk in circles, high above anybody who could be offended by the sight. Or so goes the saying. You also see a bridge connecting the church directly to the residential palace (the towered structure to the right).

    Augustus war efforts brought mixed results, but who cares when you can put yourself up on a horse on a pedestal, larger than life and covered in gold. With his son however it went really bad, and Saxony was repeatedly defeated by the Prussians and ultimately occupied during the Seven Years War (which Prussia really should not have won, but they drew a lucky tsar). The Saxon prince turned king then allied with Napoleon, and in the long run that didn't go too well either. And finally another one again was on the wrong side against the Prussians in 1866, leaving him with the honourful opportunity of fighting alongside Prussia in the Franco-Prussian War and submitting to the Prussian emperor (the kingdom of Saxony was continued until 1918, with some autonomy within the empire, until facing the prospect of democratic/socialist revolution the last king went off with the immortal words of "do your crap alone then" ("macht euern Dreck alleene", in local dialect). All that time however Saxony was very much a cultural center, and later on also one of the early heartlands of industrialization happened among the German states.

    Saxony then was part of the Weimar Republic, the nazi state and the GDR until finally joining the Federal Republic as a state. Compared to the other former GDR states it is notably successful economically, although by far not to the standard of the south of the country or the old FRG states in general. The big cities are somewhat thriving, while the countryside has serious problems including depopulation and in particular youth wandering off. Nowadays it is rather infamous among Germans and I fear internationally for having what appears the most entrenched and violent far right movement within the country, to the point that many seem to view it as a lost cause, and some feel it is unsafe to visit. Living here I can attest that we are having issues with racists on a near daily basis. At the same time there are many wonderful people here, including those resisting that shit, sometimes heroically. Generally people have a nice down to earth and hands on mentality, many are actually ery interested in culture, your money matters less than in other regions. My son is starting to pick up the hideous local dialect of German which is becoming a problem.

    So far for our theme for the game, although I'm very happy to discuss anything Saxon related. Maybe with the indidual cities I'll write a bit more, although that plan generally never materializes after maybe the first 2 cities.
    Angehängte Grafiken Angehängte Grafiken
    Geändert von Miguelito (08. Februar 2022 um 23:32 Uhr)

  2. #2
    RB-Tourist Avatar von Miguelito
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    grrr, the dog ate my homework (browser killed the window with my post due to a strange key combination, so no tier list tonight)

    We have the civ assignments already:

    1 AZTEC Aristobulus -> 333
    2 BABYLON kreutzberg+x -> 352
    3 CELT shade -> 1084
    4 CHINA Hagen0 -> 1920
    5 EGYPT Xist10 + Ginge -> 1981
    6 FRANCE Cornflakes -> 2717
    7 GERMANY Mr. X -> 2900
    8 HOLY_ROMAN Jesper Portus -> 3442
    9 INCA Miguelito -> 3924
    10 INDIA Plemo -> 4444
    11 KOREA Piccadilly -> 4465
    12 MALI TeeRohr -> 5632
    13 MAYA Leolo -> 6210
    14 MONGOL GT+Empirate -> 6359
    15 OTTOMAN naufragarRB -> 6781
    16 PERSIA firlefanzer+Flunky -> 6886
    17 RUSSIA Hubabl -> 7697
    18 ZULU vanguard -> 9682


    Everybody drew a random number using the forum software, and then we were assigned in order to the alphabetical list of civs. This was actually quite thrilling, as I drew early and then saw us getting pushed down step by step. For a good while it looked like we might end up with Germany.
    But yes, this is BtS, deity, and we are Huayna Capac of the Inca (in best Civforum tradition we are playing restricted leaders). I guess I should be happy? I was secretly hoping for one more push towards India, out of love for Spi, but this is probably stronger. However the catch is that they already announced that they're balancing the starts for the leaders (and they have to, otherwise it would be criminal to have our draw and whatever Celtic leader in the same game). So expect tundra, AH only resources, only seafood... there are so many options to make us miserable. I think they also don't send out starting screenshots, so we'll have to wait and see what it's like in game. But probably still a terribly lucky draw. In particular if we want to be successful here, because a bad starting area matters a lot less after you conquer a better one :mischief: , and then in the long run Fin will rule.

  3. #3
    RB-Tourist Avatar von Miguelito
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    Hello to everybody commenting
    Btw I just want to remind you that since we are playing by Civforum rules, as general lurkers you are allowed and encouraged to give all sorts of advice and discussion points, so long as you don't use spoiler info from other threads. So I hope for this thread to be more lively than usual.


    Zitat Zitat von Amicalola
    Do you think that Huayna is strongest leader in Restricted games, or is there another leader that you think edges him out, in a vacuum? I was considering perhaps Pacal. Looking forward to finally lurking a game of yours! .
    I would probably rate Pacal as the best BtS leader, but I don't like Maya much. Mind that we are starting with (inmobile) archers, so a Holkan might cut off copper but will not score an easy kill, and then that's probably not worth it. If I had to choose from the list I might pick Mali, out of love for Spi and because of starting techs - you will need BW as one of your first 3 techs, and quick pottery is also good. Inca might get screwed by none agri food in a way that just won't happen to a mining starter. Which also makes me consider Vicky or Hannibal for best possible pick. Asoka has my heart but I suppose is objectively weaker.

    The thing is also that I have never played Inca even in SP, so I don't have quite a feeling for them yet. The terrace combined with Fin is obviously bonkers, just need to get there in a timely manner (likely food tech -> mining -> BW -> wheel -> pottery, so something like t50-60?). The quechua I guess is more useful in SP where the AI builds archers. The C1 may be slightly useful yet against barbs or early harassers however (or to do our own harassing :devil: ), and of course you can build warriors for MP well into the game which saves 20h here or there (but also leaves you with less emergency forces). Huayna should really love the Colossus, otoh he does not really like Oracle. Might be better to shoot straight for MoM? Ind also has some value for failgold milking, which seems to be pretty much required in these games. Huh, that was less pick analysis and more like half a game plan, I didn't actually want to get to that yet...


    Zitat Zitat von Mjmd
    I find it fascinating the German forum doesn't like mods to balance the traits (/units), but instead balances the starts in an arbitrary map maker way. With how barren their maps normally are you probably get like 1 food as Inca :alright:
    I play this game for variance. I quite expect the balancing-by-leader to conclude a few serious miscalculations, but that just adds to the fun (he said, then started on ice). However this map has gone through the hands of 2 mapmakers and is now being tested by multiple people, to my understanding, which includes playing a few dozen turns for each start. So they're certainly putting in the effort for this to work (much appreciated :hatsoff: ).
    I also don't expect the map to be very starved; the main mapmaker is Ziankali who also made the map for their PB89, which I would argue is not much harsher than our regular map. They are also running a PB91 on a random generated wasteland currently, and I think the appetite for that has been satiated erstwhile.

  4. #4
    RB-Tourist Avatar von Miguelito
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    I have a cake in the oven at half past midnight. Sounds like the right time to do that tier list!
    Sources: I have lurked Civforum PB 88, 89 and 91 rather closely, 87 as well somewhat, and read up on the two winners' threads of PB 73.

    Tier 1: the guy who wins games
    • Plemo (India) - really, he seems to have started MP late on, but has won all of the PBs he's participated in, like 5 total, including the 52 player one. Probably very good micro (even though I could not take away much from the reports), but more importantly a great feeling for the flow of the game and macro decisions. Ideally he gets instantly dogpiled. Or more worryingly everybody cowers in fear and he picks us off one by one. India with the original fast worker is infamous, and surely he will know how to leverage either leader. I hope Civforum shares RB's opinion of India = superOP and they put him on a desert island.


    Tier 2: the guy who wins the games where tier 1 isn't present
    • Jesper Portus (HRR) - legendary for lucky rolls in all sorts of random draws. He's played a lot and has won a lot, to the point where people tend not to attack him because it will never work anyway, and he coasts along on minimal power into a technological advantage. Very good at sensing and taking vulturing opportunities. HRR seems bonkers with corporations.


    Tier 3: seasoned veterans
    Any of these may well win if not for Plemo, but maybe if three of them face him a fourth one might get ahead?
    • Piccadilly (Korea) - looks I placed him way too low in the PB59 list, so to be safe I'll move him to the top of this (unsorted, really) tier. I think he also was Korea in the 52 player world map of PB73? It's a civ that may not get the harshest start, but still has Fin, so it might work out great for him.
    • Hagen0 (China) - this is our very own civac2! China is extra valuable on deity, great roll. Encyclopedic knowledge of mechanics, solid micro, usually good decisions and sometimes a creative plan. I'm a fan.
    • shade (Celts) - was (together with Ilja) on his way to take PB89 home early but then got himself the GLH razed. But that was certainly an impressive early game.
    • Cornflakes (France) - quite a creative player, with a slight tendency to get lost in long term planned, evil schemes, which then often don't quite work out. I still consider PB59 a troll game. Aggressive.
    • Mr. X (Germany) - very solid Cathy-into-knights in PB89
    • TeeRohr (Mali) - temperamental :shhh:


    Tier 4: wildcards and esoterics
    • Aristobolus (Aztecs) - apparently he used to be a quite respected player. His PB88 was atrocious though, but maybe that was sort of a variant?
    • naufragar (Ottomen) - the civ is too vanilla for nauf. I wish him well and hope for an enduring thread.
    • firlefanzer + Flunky (Persia) - firle is a bit of a headless chicken which however finds a surprising amount of grains. Flunky builds up very decently, but in PB88 he really struggled when he went to war.
    • vanguard (Zulu) - often chimes in in Civforum threads with suggestions which go much against established wisdom, but are not uninformed, even though I rarely concur. Impis in the hand of this excentric are scary.


    Tier 5: future: extinct
    Obviously I don't mean to sound arrogant, and usually I get many of these predictions quite wrong. But yes, I'd like to call them neighbours, for a while at least. Most of them have proven themselves edible, but no pushovers, in previous games.
    • kreutzberg (Babylon) - just have the record of PB88, where he started in a difficult position with Louis in Italy while João controlled central Europe, and got boxed in. Iirc the eventual defense was a bit uncommitted.
    • Xist10 + Ginger (Egypt) - xist is enthusiastic which is nice, and I expect him to have improved upon the dubious PB88 appearance. But he still got eliminated quite quickly in 89. Everything I could say about Ginger would spoiler PB63, but it is clear that he enjoys civ a lot and likes to be engaged.
    • Leolo (Maya) - first time MP, apparently not of the deity crowd. I hope he gets to enjoy the game a bit before the inevitable.
    • GT+Empirate (Mongol) - I was going to put them into tier 3 because I thought it was Empi's game. GT is unusual in that buildering and earlygame are not his strong suits. However he has proven himself a thorny snack. He knows how to whip out an army, and has shown some creative maneuvers. If Empirate takes care of the early game they mind end up higher.
    • Hubabl (Russia) - has a tendency to fall behind economically. Will defend seriously.

  5. #5
    RB-Tourist Avatar von Miguelito
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    Zitat Zitat von Rusten
    Checking in. When do you anticipate we'll get the starting screenshot/begin?
    Glad to have you!

    Supposedly they are in the final round of map checking, and it's been a couple of days. Maybe this weekend? I understand that starting screenshots are for losers, and we'll just get thrown right into it (but we can abuse the long timer on the first turn).


    Bit more of strategy - what I have taken away from Civforum deity games, and how they differ from what we do here. Midn that my own experience playing deity is very limited (Rome on the world map once a couple years ago, and some FFH/EMM)
    • obviously settling oneself into bankruptcy is a major peril, but at the same time we still need to keep up with expansion. Growing onto commerceless tiles can be a problem because every new pop adds so much maintenance. Remedies are early Pottery and focused cottaging, and the usual of Sailing, Writing for OB, Currency.
    • Axe rushes happen frequently though, so BW has to be even earlier. As I wrote above, I expect (food tech) -> Mining -> BW -> Wheel -> Pottery to be the correct path.
    • Starting warriors appear by BtS rules, so early choking can be devestating, in particular versus an Agg neighbour. Prime example is superdeath's PB88, but there are more. Luckily we do get a C1 Quechua. Might even consider doing something mean ourselves.
    • Also, successful empires usually go through a major Moai failgold campaign in order to break out into the middle ages. Ind will help us with that. Generally failgold is highly valued.
    • Adding to the theme, commerce is king, so cottage every legal tile. Have a look at PB59's Babylon and you get the idea. Maybe we will be forgiven for allowing ourselves one dedicated hammer city? (the threads often mention hammer cities, but those usually still get cottages). Printing Press is vital to get asap
    • The start is a terrible slog, and it is not unlikely that at turn 120 our best unit might still be the good ole' axe. That leads to sometimes people snapping and throwing big axe stacks at each other (as expected, achieving little but mutual ruin). Axe and cats is definitely a viable and often used invasion strategy. I can see us doing that and sending a second wave of horchers.
    • In general, people are more fond of 1 mover stacks, even if conquests go painfully slow. Note however that eg Plemo in PB88 definitely used supporting 2 movers to good effect. I am not quite sure why this happens; my suspicion is that the slower start leaves defending empires more mature production wise when the first people reach HBR or Guilds, reducing the chance for successful 2 mover ambushes. In the later game 1pop drafted rifles are obviously also a major factor skewing things towards 1movers.
    • Also due to the slow beginning and the need for commerce, cities tend to be more fully constructed, especially with multiplier buildings. Libraries everywhere, markets in most places after that, and so on.
    • Many people really value the monk economy. They'll try to get the AP religion somehow, spread it asap and build temples and monasteries everywhere, even if it feeds into a dominant competitor's shrine. I'm not entirely sure why this is valued so highly, even compared to RB games where of course we also like ourselves the AP hammers.
    • Spy missions are allowed (no tech stealing or civic/religion changes). In particular city revolts could be very important when attacking.

    I'm sure I forgot a bunch but that is what I come up with right now. Feel welcome to add to the list everybody.

  6. #6

  7. #7
    RB-Tourist Avatar von Miguelito
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    Zitat Zitat von HeymlicH Beitrag anzeigen
    I think you can move Aristobulus up by two tiers
    Danke für den sachdienlichen Hinweis . Wie gesagt, ich kenne nur das PB88, und das war ja ziemlicher Schiffbruch. Aber ich glaube da hat er auch einfach hoch gepokert?

  8. #8
    Registrierter Benutzer
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    Der 1. Beitrag ist sehr schön und informativ; gerne mehr davon!
    Viel Spass im Spiel.

  9. #9
    Registrierter Benutzer
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    Schöne Einleitung!


  10. #10
    Registrierter Benutzer Avatar von klops
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    Impressive wall oft text

    My son is starting to pick up the hideous local dialect of German which is becoming a problem.
    lol
    be warned, this will happen to you as well (sooner or later)



    Ich war ziemlich verwirrt über deine Geschichtsstunde. Sachsen und Preußen? War das nicht Mr.X?
    Ah, ok, du lebst zur Zeit in Sachsen, interessant. Der sächsische Herrscher führt zuerst die Inka zu Wohlstand und unterwirft dann den Rest der Welt

    Viel Spaß und Erfolg!

  11. #11
    Genosse Dampfsense Avatar von Der Gevatter Tod
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    Pretty interesting to see an outsiders perspective on civforum culture, thanks for that. Especially the bewilderment at forgoing mods, but hacking away at elaborate maps

  12. #12
    25 Jahre verheiratet Avatar von Papa Bear
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    Hi Miguelito, ich lese hier auch gerne mit
    Aktuelles RL-Projekt: PV-Anlage + E-Auto

    Heimkinobau-RL-Story

    Eine Runde Nostalgie...

    Wie kam der Papa zum FCB? Des Rätsels Lösung

    Star Wars Episode I-III doch irgendwie nachvollziehbar? Wie der Papa das sieht

    Zitat Zitat von Klipsch-RF7II
    "Streaming ist für die breite Masse und denen ist HDR piepschnutzegal. Wenn man denen HDR erklärt, verstehen sie eh' nur Bahnhof"

  13. #13
    RB-Tourist Avatar von Miguelito
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    Hallo und allen die reingeschaut haben. Der erste Zug steht an:

    Is this a necro already? The game's rolling!

    Bild
    Forested corn is lovely. No PH or equivalent in sight yet. Where do I send the quechua? Again, everybody is invited to give suggestions
    The other burning questions of course are whether to settle in place, and Hunting first or straight to BW? The latter would leave an off the bat worker unemployed, but maybe we grow to size 2 first on a quechua?

    The max score numbers in the lower left corner tell something about world size and food lushness, but I don't know what exactly. Might have to look up old civforum threads.

    Bild
    Small world size should make the BW push a bit easier. I suppose it also means that we run an even higher risk of bankrupting by overexpansion?

    Colossus and GLH are banned, and circumnavigation disabled, so we can expect a water heavy map (and the start points in the same direction). Plemo also pointed out that there are no Fishing civs. Colossus ban is a bit disappointing for our Ind/fin, but at least it means we do something different from PB59.


    I suppose we can take a few days to work out a plan for the start.
    Angehängte Grafiken Angehängte Grafiken

  14. #14
    RB-Tourist Avatar von Miguelito
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    Link to the micro sheet is in post #2, and I'm attaching a first sandbox to this post.
    Tech costs are actually lower than PB59:

    Hunting 62
    Mining 78
    AH 156
    BW 187
    Pottery 127
    Sailing 156

    SIP and quechua -> worker, while directly going Mining-BW has us getting a useless worker eot 17 and BW just eot 22, even if we work the fur with the second citizen over the corn. 234 base beakers to clear, and the capital makes no more than 11, not much we can do about it. Well working the fur right from the start has BW eot 21, but it's not a serious option.

    So if SIP we pretty clearly need hunting. We may explore camping the fur before the deer in order to speed up BW, although of course that needs good justification.

    SIP also invalidates a plant on the apparent cape to the west.

    So, where does the quechua go? I think we pretty clearly need the fur in the BFC if we go Hunting first, which seems almost certain unless we find an unforested grain resource. Viable spots then are:

    1. SIP, 1S -> about equivalent from what we know thus far (the second one saves a forest). Seafood bythe cape may get orphaned
    2. 1NE -> no river though
    3. 2E -> probably no river, wastes a forest.
    4. 1W, 1SW -> may pick up aforementioned seafood, very watery capital which I'm not a fan of although I suppose Fin likes it?
    5. 1N2E looks like coast from the fog?
    6. 2N1E, 2N2E -> would need to justify the turn moving and losing the corn. And we can't see anything that would do so with the quechua.



    Reasonable quechua moves that I see:
    • SW (W?) for 4.
    • NE for 2., 3.
    • SE for 1S
    • E for a combination of 1S and 2., 3.

  15. #15
    RB-Tourist Avatar von Miguelito
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    SIP and camping the fur first has us finishing the settler with 14 overflow on t33. That can be sped up by a turn by working the cornforest over the fur camp for two turns, most likely that's worth it.

    2 quechuas (or 1 and a scout?) out, size 2, not yet revolted. Hunting, Mining, BW and Wheel are finished, and 19/127 beakers into Pottery (or whatever). Fur and deer camped, corn just finished the chop-farm.

    I suspect that this is better than camping the deer first, as I would do intuitively. The worker still spends 4 turns idling this way.

    But we really should wait for what the quechua sees before further simming.

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