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Thema: 88 naufragar ist Montezuma

  1. #136
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    How much space do you really have in the East? Previously I das horses there.
    Geändert von Ilja (26. Mai 2020 um 17:20 Uhr)
    PB 89 - Sieger der Herzen https://www.civforum.de/showthread.p...-mit-Per%FCcke
    Real Life Story - Mein Leben als Imker https://www.civforum.de/showthread.p...eben-der-Biene

    Carlsen rocks!

  2. #137
    Registrierter Benutzer Avatar von naufragarRB
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    Zitat Zitat von HeymlicH Beitrag anzeigen
    ZK tops you in might, production and food. Do you really feel, you can take one of his cities and get away with it?
    In the short term? Naturally. He has a lot more to lose than me. Here’s the power graph from turn 73. I haven't taken the picture for turn 74 yet:
    Bild
    I don’t believe he has Horseback Riding. By the time he can get a serious force of horse archers, I would have Aggressive axes and spears with Barracks promotions. The plan would be to surprise his city and then defend. He has twice as many cities as me, so he could take a city or two off me, but it would be very expensive for him. He’s one of the leaders of this entire 52 player game. He doesn’t want to whip his civ into the ground to make an army yet.

    In the long term, he will be able to use better tech and production to hit me with a gigantic army. If I take a city from him now, he won’t forgive me when he gets knights.

    I have great faith in momentum and aggression. Unfortunately, in past games, I have been too aggressive. I wrote the piece in the spoiler tag below for Realms Beyond. I meant to translate it, but it was beyond me, plus I refer to games played on that site. I’ve included it here, because it’s relevant to your question. (But the power graph is just for Civforum. )

    Achtung Spoiler:
    Lurkers love manifestos, and it’s a lovely day out, despite the looming viral threat, so I felt like soul searching. What follows is half petulant self-justification, half confession.

    Hello. My name is naufragar, and I am aggressive. Superdeath and I are kindred spirits. I’m on record saying he hasn’t been aggressive enough, in fact. I have a problem, and acknowledging it is the first step.

    My litany of reflexive aggression goes back. In this PB, I just assassinated a neighbor’s axe that wasn’t doing me any harm. In my last game (PB45), I assassinated a neighbor’s warrior that wasn’t doing me any harm, and the aftermath cost me a city and my only source of horse. It probably didn’t lose me the game outright, but it certainly didn’t help. In the game before that (PB41), I was on an island, so I didn’t really get the chance to be aggressive. Wait. I remember. Rusten and Hitru on another island committed an unforgivable sin (I forget exactly what ) and the ensuing war I declared ruined my game. In my first game (PB38) I didn’t do anything too stupidly reckless, but I was planning to. I was going to screw with Rusten’s settling, but I had to retreat my axe to fight some barbs.

    So, two out of three completed games, I shot myself in the foot with some unprofitable minor attack. And dear reader? I’m only a little sorry, only partially chastened. Take the current game as an example. I currently have three enemies: Ziankali, Aspi, and Holland. Astute lurkers might notice that I’ve just named all my neighbors. Ziankali is currently winning the game, I believe. Eventually he will run out of avenues of peaceful expansion. He’ll need to fight someone to keep expanding, and he’ll likely pick the runt of his neighbors. I’m weak; he’s strong. If I want to win, I need him to not kill me when he turns imperialistic. More than that, I need him to not win somehow. Aspi planted a city a boat ride away from two of my cities, one of which is my capital. His culture will grab the only spot I know of that will give intercontinental trade routes. He must know that I will take that city as soon as I can. I know that he knows. Finally, Holland. He’s actually the least inimical of my enemies. We’re enemies because I want the land to my East. Some of that land, in a fair world, would be his, including the excellent pig tile. There are two ways that the neighbors stop being enemies. 1) We settle mutually defensible boundaries that are too costly to attack. 2) A different neighbor becomes a great enough threat to the both of us.

    I say all this with no personal animus. I’ve got nothing against my neighbors, and I assume they don’t have anything against me. We’re simply opponents. Simply by existing next to each other in a competitive game, we are in a state of conflict. I wacked Holland’s axe because the attack benefited me and cost him. But of course therein lies the rub. It could be that by attacking I make myself Holland’s least liked neighbor, and he moves against me in the future, so my attack comes back to cost me later. My blind spot comes from the fact that at the same time I am eager to do casual violence, I accept the risk of someone doing the same to me. For example, if Ziankali wants to kill my warrior, that would not change our relationship in the slightest. It gives me an intelligence problem: I can’t watch for his chariots/horse archers. But that’s a tactical consideration. To my mind nothing has changed vis a vis diplomacy. (In fact I said something like this back in PB38: “If I ever play another game at RB, something for future opponents: I would not take it personally if BGN declared to move through. If I then had a warrior in reach, I'd pop his scout. That's just scouts and warriors doing what scouts and warriors do.”) Ziankali is the big fish; I am the small fish, warrior snipe or no.

    This is not to say I don’t get cranky when people thwart my plans or break my stuff. When GeneralKilCavalry and Boak were propping Superdeath up with free luxuries in PB45, I was furious: “Dear lurkers, please let me be white-hot, seething mad, despite my knowledge that my opponents are doing what they should do.” But at heart, I can appreciate self-interest. And despite my proclaimed jerkishness, I have worked with neighbors. I worked with Rusten against Mackoti in PB38 and Commodore against Rusten in PB41.

    I know that in the real world justice is not, in fact, merely the advantage of the stronger. But in a game of Civ? A few turns after raging about GeneralKilCavalry’s luxury gifts to Superdeath and swearing eternal vengeance, he and I made a mutually advantageous luxury trade. We knew where we stood. We weren’t allies, but self-interest prevailed. So, back to PB88. I have gained 2xp on an axe, 2 Great General points, the chance for 2 more xp and some capture gold, and I’ve cost a rival a unit. Without a reaction from Holland, this is pure profit, however miniscule. It remains to be seen if I’ve started a chain of events that ends with terrible cost. “Mock mothers from their sons. Mock castles down.”

    Turns out this manifesto was just my attempt at explaining my face-blind realpolitik. I promise that, if I dish it out, I at least make an honest effort to take it, too. Future opponents please don’t read this.
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  3. #138
    Registrierter Benutzer Avatar von naufragarRB
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    Zitat Zitat von Ilja Beitrag anzeigen
    How mich space do you really have in the East? Previously I das horses there.
    I'll take a better picture of the East when I finish the turn. It's a tricky question because some of that land should belong to Holland. Here's a tough question: Do I keep expanding East for easy land and forget about the horse or do I hope that the East will stay open and fight for horses. Ramk points out that someone might be willing to trade.

  4. #139
    ausgetreten
    Gast
    So your reasons for war are:

    • Opponent is stronger than me, so i have absolutely no chance in winning
    • I can raze a city and then get nothing out of it
    • Will ruin the game for two players and advance the other 48players
    • Just sent a wheat vs wheat trade to lure him into a peaceful atmosphere


    I think I am not yet used to the conventions of RB.

  5. #140
    Civ-Rentner Avatar von HeymlicH
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    It would be understandable if you were blocked, but there is still a lot of space in the east. Why not grab that uninhabited land first?

  6. #141
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    Zitat Zitat von naufragarRB Beitrag anzeigen
    Do I keep expanding East for easy land and forget about the horse or do I hope that the East will stay open and fight for horses.
    Why are you so keen on horses to go to war for? You are AGG, I would work towards a maceman war.

    Do you know how strong Holland is? I might prefer to settle east first. ZK has a few neighbours, may be if there is a war you can take the horse city from him then. Otherwise you can attack Holland.

  7. #142
    Registrierter Benutzer Avatar von naufragarRB
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    Zitat Zitat von Erfolgsgarant Beitrag anzeigen
    So your reasons for war are:
    I think I am not yet used to the conventions of RB.
    You understand completely! (But with your user image, shouldn't you be in favor of discord? )

    Zitat Zitat von HeymlichH
    It would be understandable if you were blocked, but there is still a lot of space in the east. Why not grab that uninhabited land first?
    Zitat Zitat von Midas
    Why are you so keen on horses to go to war for? You are AGG, I would work towards a maceman war.
    To answer Heymlich's question, I have to answer Midas. I believe slow units are far worse than their Strength number shows. Even then, Macemen are bad units to attack with. If you have Maces, your opponents probably already have Crossbowmen. Even Longbowmen beat Maces and are available much earlier.

    In a recent game, I attacked with Samurai and got badly beaten, even though my opponent only had Horse Archers. The Samurai were just too slow, and my opponent could reinforce quickly with the horses. Basically, I don't think any 1-move unit is good to attack, except Rifles (or maybe muskets). Obviously, I'm leaving out catapults. They're the best.

    So, to answer Heymlich's question, this war wouldn't be about territory. There's plenty of space in the east. This is only about having horses for when I need to make Knights.

    I think I have been persuaded not to suddenly attack Ziankali. (And honestly, the wheat for wheat trade is a big part of it. I am very honorable. )

    I can't log in to the game to finish the turn, but when I can, I'll give you all a picture of the East.

  8. #143
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    Just as a support for your decision to avoid war for horses now I would like to point out the following: Once you are able to build knights I am pretty sure that you will be able to trade horses (for luxury and/or gold per turn) due to the large number of players. Obviously, your direct neighbours will be hesitant to trade horses but someone further away probably won't mind trading with you (assuming that there is a decent amount of horses on the whole map).
    At least in previous world map games I don't remember the lack of a strategic resource to be the "bottleneck" in wartime (except for ivory). On the other hand you should keep in mind that your opponent will probably receive such strategic resources (iron, copper, horses, ivory) as well.

  9. #144
    ausgetreten
    Gast
    Early wars axemen vs axemen just take two people out of the group of the people who might win the game. Surely someone else far away from you is thankful if you do this to Europe, but I just don't get the sense out of that.

  10. #145
    Registrierter Benutzer Avatar von naufragarRB
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    Hier is der Osten.
    Bild

    Ich bewege ein BT und Siedler zu dem X. Ich weiss nicht, wo der naechste Siedler gehen wird. Ich hatte diesen Stein und Pferd ungenuegend beachten.

    Ziankalis neue Stadt:
    Bild

    Die Strasse werden fuer Bautruppsleistung gemacht. Das mag Ziankali aengstigen. (Nicht meine Intention…)

    (I try to write in German when the report is simple, since I’m on a German forum and I don’t want to give readers any barrier. If my schoolboy German is painful or offensive let me know. Your English is better than my German.)

    For strategy debates, I need to use English, unfortunately. Here is the Power graph:
    Bild

    I’m not planning on going to war with Ziankali. I think his city is a little greedy: he can plant another city on Denmark 888 of Lierin. In 6 turns, the borders of my city expand, so I can surprise him from the fog with 1-move units. I wouldn’t be able to surprise him if he planted one tile North. He has double my cities but I’m still competitive in power. This means, as many of you have pointed out, that he doesn’t want to fight a war just yet. This, in turn, means that we wouldn’t be dragged into a war of total annihilation (hypothetically). He declined to give me Open Borders despite having them with all his other neighbors.

    But don’t worry. I’m not going to attack him. And I’m certainly not going to destroy both of our games just so I can get some horses. The land to the East is very rich. Let me take that back. The land to the East has lots of food and commerce but very few hammers. The Aztecs with their Sacrificial Altars love this kind of land. My current priority is grabbing that land.

    I’m very indecisive about tech. If I’m not going to attack Aspi, I don’t need Sailing soon. Lighthouses are overrated if you aren’t Org, in my opinion. (Obviously every coastal city should get a lighthouse, but until a city is mature, there are usually better tiles than coast.) If I survive long enough, I would like to build Moai at my capital. Just a thought.
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  11. #146
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    Zitat Zitat von naufragarRB Beitrag anzeigen

    But don’t worry. I’m not going to attack him. .
    We wouldn't be worried. We want action

  12. #147
    Registrierter Benutzer Avatar von nephrom
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    Zitat Zitat von naufragarRB Beitrag anzeigen
    (I try to write in German when the report is simple, since I’m on a German forum and I don’t want to give readers any barrier. If my schoolboy German is painful or offensive let me know. Your English is better than my German.)
    I think your german is quite fine. If you're not sure how to say something i recommend www.deepl.com. The translation is really good for a automatic translator.

    Otherwise: Action!

  13. #148
    25 Jahre verheiratet Avatar von Papa Bear
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    I wouldn't mind English, either

    But since I read that in your story on the RB Forum anyway...

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  14. #149
    Hodor?! Avatar von HodorHODOR
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    Pigs-7 in the far east looks like a perfect spot for a future city. It will probably give you access to horses, as long as you can defend them against Greek culture. I guess you have to be fast to settle there, but the location is undoubtedly worth it.
    "His elk?" said Bran, wonderstruck. "His elk?" said Meera, startled. "His ravens?" said Jojen. "Hodor?" said Hodor.

  15. #150
    Registrierter Benutzer Avatar von naufragarRB
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    Zitat Zitat von HodorHODOR Beitrag anzeigen
    Pigs-7 in the far east looks like a perfect spot for a future city. It will probably give you access to horses, as long as you can defend them against Greek culture. I guess you have to be fast to settle there, but the location is undoubtedly worth it.
    And that leaves space for a city 89 of the marble or perhaps 88 from it. I think Holland's capital is very close in the fog. My warrior needs to find him, so he can repay my earlier attack.

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